subtle disruptors the podcast

interviewing those creating undercover beauty and impact

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Xiao Han Drummond

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Xiao Han Drummond: Subtle disruption of our personalised echo chamber - SD67

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During the US presidential election my Facebook news feed had me convinced the Hillary Clinton was going to win the presidency. And not only my Facebook news feed, but my day to day conversations, and the small amount of radio and TV I listed to, both had me convinced of the same.

Every now and then a couple of posts would pop-up as I was scrolling Facebook. These were posts from friends in the US who seemed to have a very strange way of thinking. They actually seemed to have some coherent criticisms of Clinton. I remember not enjoying reading their posts, and wanting to type back at them in outrage, but somehow I kept them in my feed out of curiosity.

We all know the outcome of the election, and the corresponding shock and surprise that many Clinton fans experienced. It was soon after that terms like ‘filter bubble’ and ‘echo chamber’ became part of our everyday vernacular, and the tech giants we rely upon to inform us were called out as the villains.

My guest for this week, Xiao Han Drummond, has been pondering the problem of media bias and filter bubbles for a number of years, and decided the stop working at her corporate marketing job to found a startup focused on this issue. She created Refni (there are prizes for working out the meaning behind the name), and has been working on it for the past few years to find a way to help us all become more aware of our bubbles, their characteristics, and how to make them work for our collective benefit.

If you enjoyed listening to Xiao Han you may also enjoy listening to Gus Hervey on being intelligently optimistic about the future, and Matt Allen on the importance of team and honesty when founding a startup.

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Nathan Loutit

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Nathan Loutit: Harnessing the uni/industry borderlands to design the future - SD66

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Nathan Loutit is one of the key people at the Centre for Design Innovation at Swinburne University in Melbourne’s Hawthorn. As it turns out Swinburne is the university where I completed my undergraduate degree, and I have to say that Nathan is working on some slightly cooler things that I ever did.

Nathan has a background as an industrial designer, and co-founded is own design consultancy before he had even left university. He finds himself now back inside a university, this time with the task of harnessing the richness of minds and ideas that are contained within a campus, and enabling this to be used to develop amazing solutions for industry.

In his daily work Nathan gets to work with 3D printers, creating products using the latest in material technology, and on problems that help their clients break into new markets and manufacture products locally.

This is the type of work that is going to have a dramatic impact on the world we are creating, and doing it with purpose and meaning, and with awareness of the breadth of its consequences, will be key to the type of impact it has.

Nathan is passionate about his work, and gives some great insights into a world most of us hear only snippets about.

If you enjoyed listening to Nathan you may also enjoy listening to Gus Hervey on being intelligently optimistic about the future.

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Jaddan Comerford

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Jaddan Comerford: Consciously creating music for, by, and with people - SD65

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I confess that I do not know that much about the music industry. I grew up thinking that any non-Christian music was evil, as it could influence me in ways I could not understand. As a result my taste were quite limited as a kid, and I restricted myself from understanding it in any great depth.

Today I think that the very ability of music to tap into things I don’t understand is what it is all about. My tastes have broadened since I was a kid, and listening to music often enables me to articulate and express an emotion I don’t have the words for. It seems to go even deeper than language, and enables me to feel what I need to feel.

During a recent episode, Patrick Jones posited that the food a society eats impacts the art that it makes. When we eat food that is produced through cruelty, is poor quality, and is made without love, we can’t help but represent this through blandness and commercialisation in our art.

I think it is an interesting idea, and I wonder if that is true how it might translate to other ways we go about things, and other art forms. For example with music, whether the relationships that enable music to enter our lives have an impact on the music that ends up being created. If the record label is solely motivated by profit, does this impact how the artist creates music? If the artist simply wants to be famous, does this shape how they perform on stage?

My uninformed guess is that it probably does; that people can’t help but have their everyday experience with other people, and their primary motivations, shape the work they create.

If that is the case, then the organisation that Jaddan Comerford created and leads is putting itself in a position that will enable people to experience music with the purest of influence. People are put at the centre of all aspect of the business: whether it be the people who work at the organisation, the artists they represent, and the people who listen and experience what the artists create.

The Unified Music Group includes artists management, live music, recorded music and merchandise, and has recently launched a grant to support emerging artists in all fields.

Jaddan is one of the leading figures in Australia’s music industry, and we have a conversation that is filled with humility and groundedness. I hope you enjoy our conversation.

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Ruby Lee

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Ruby Lee: Subtly disrupting the human/organisation relationship - SD63

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I think I got pretty lucky when working at PwC. It was around the time that I had started thinking about changing careers and getting into urban place-making. An opportunity came up to project manage a church building in transition in Melbourne’s north-east, and the Partner in charge of me at the time gave me the all-clear to work on it.

My guest for this week, Ruby Lee, had a very different experience with one of her employers. She was starting on her own quest of understanding how to align her values with her work. One of the ways she was doing this was through a blog, which quickly caught the eye of her employer. While they praised her for what she had written, Ruby was still asked to stop writing as it could reflect poorly on the organisation.

I think historically this has been the experience for many people as they have experimented with different ideas while working full-time. Organisations have feared that in allowing people to have a side-business, or write their own views, this would distract people from their employed job, and open the organisation up to reputational damage.

Today Ruby has found herself working in HR and recruitment at [Cogent](https://cogent.co/), the place where I work part-time as well. We both have side-businesses that are encouraged and seen as good for us and the organisation.

Ruby’s side-hustle is called [The Careers Emporium](https://www.thecareersemporium.com/), an on-line community where she helps people take ownership of their careers and empowers them with insider knowledge. She is passionate about helping those who are wondering what they are doing at work each day, those who are looking for something new, and those who want to excel within their current organisation.

And while she is building a reputation in helping individuals navigate their work life, I think she is also helping to change the conversation within organisations about thinking about the whole person of their employees.

The changing nature of work is one of my favourite topics. I want to see workplaces where at the end of the day people feel more well than they did at the start of the day; where more of our differences, whether they be temporal, locational, or environmental, are embraced.

Ruby is one of the people who is helping individuals and organisations change the way they think about work. I thoroughly enjoyed our conversation, and I hope you do too.

If you enjoyed listening to Ruby you may also enjoy listening to Dr Jason Fox on redesigning work, Nicole Avery on creating a side-hustle, or Carmen Hawker on mixing passions with work.

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Penny Locaso

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Penny Locaso: Getting comfortable with discomfort - SD62

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I have started taking cold showers. I know I am not alone in this - it seems to be quite the personal development thing at the moment. This is an experience I can’t say I particularly enjoy, even after doing it for more than a year. But I get so much out of it - not just the ongoing benefits to my mental and physical health, but also lessons for life through observing myself as I do this.

For example, just before I hope under the ice cold water, without fail I start telling myself that I don’t want to do this. That it will be too painful. That I can’t handle it.

And then I do it anyway. The truth is I can handle it. It is 180 seconds of discomfort, and I can stay with that discomfort for as long as I need to. From this I remember that while there are going to be moments of my day I know will be uncomfortable, I have the power and agency to to choose to enter into them, and the will to stay with that feeling until the moment passes.

After talking with my guest for this week, Penny Locaso, one of the lingering thoughts I have is the importance of being comfortable with discomfort. Penny tells the amazing story of a keynote she gave recently about authentic leadership. As a woman who is leading the way in challenging the status quo of what it means to work, and how to be well and happy in today’s context, giving a heartfelt and inspiring talk on the topic probably would have come easily to her.

But she wanted to do more than talk. She wanted to show what she meant; to put herself out there in such a way that it would make it a little bit easier for those who were listening to find their courage to act. How to do this? Why not deliver the speech in her bathers.

Through this act of courage, and of showing what it means to be comfortable in the discomfort of life, Penny not only inspired her audience to enter into their own discomfort, but created a viral buzz that is continuing to inspire people today.

Penny is about two years into a shift from being a corporate executive at Shell to working for herself. In that time she has going from realising the misalignment of her work and life with her values, to creating a way of living full of purpose and connection, and incremental steps towards happiness.

Penny is energetic and full of insights, and I hope you enjoy listening to our conversation.

If you enjoyed listening to Penny you may also enjoy listening to Rachel Service on finding happiness in life and work, or Jo Le on her journey from the corporate world to working for herself.

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Patrick Jones

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Patrick Jones: Artist as neo-peasant family - SD61

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We arrive late. Later than we thought. It is dark outside as we open the front door. As we walk in we immediately feel warm and welcome. There is a fire going. The room is invitingly lit. And Meg, who has arranged for us to meet and talk with Patrick, comes over and gives us a big hug.

Dinner is on the table, and as we sit down we are treated to an explanation of where all the food has come from. Much of it has been grown on their property; all of it has its origins known.

Over dinner we discuss many things: their planned removal of fridge and dishwasher; their way of enabling more recently introduced species of flora and fauna to flourish alongside and longer standing species; their ways of living with less money and material things to enable more connection and wellbeing in their lives.

We learn about Patrick’s days of playing practical jokes in the CBD of Melbourne: climbing and sleeping in trees; holding up signs to make people think. We learn of guerrilla tactics for reclaiming vacant, bare, underused land to create thriving permaculture oases. We hear Patrick’s thoughts on how our understanding of origins and purpose can determine our actions and trajectory.

The overwhelming feeling is of connection and openness.

That night we stay on site in a tiny house with no more or less than is needed to live. And the next morning we are treated to breakfast, a tour of the property, and an expedition foraging for mushrooms in the nearby forest.

My weekend in Daylesford to Meg and Patrick’s place was the first time I had been able to stay with one of my guests for an extended period of time. It gave me an excellent insight into the way they live, and why they choose to live that way. I was able to see the many benefits it brought to their life, and the freedom it enabled them to experience. I have made some changes in my own life to live in a more frugal way and to decouple enjoyment and fun from money, and I was inspired to take this further after this experience.

Patrick Jones and his family live in a fascinating way - one he describes as one response to the context we find ourselves living in now. A context where we seem to see technology as our saviour and the earth as our foe. Where things like slowing down, reusing what we have, and connecting to the land are inferior to doing more, buying more, and putting more layers between us and the dirt.

I am inspired by Patrick and his family’s response, and my time with them left me with much to ponder. I hope in listening to our conversation you are left with the same feeling.

Patrick and Meg’s tiny house (aka the Permie Love Shack) is available for rent through Airbnb.

You can read more about them on their blog.

Here is a link to their book, The Art of Free Travel, about their experience travelling around Australia on bike for 400 days.

And if you enjoyed listening to this conversation, you may also enjoy listening to Samuel Alexander on his response to living in our current context, Karen Ellis and reuse and repair, Matt Wicking on what context we are living in, or Cameron Elliot on crowdsourcing wisdom.

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Eddie Harran

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Eddie Harran: Bringing awareness and agency to our temporal conceptions - SD60

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I say goodbye to Eddie, giving him a hug before I leave. The thoughts I have as we part ways are ones of gratitude. I feel grateful for having had the chance to chat with him one-on-one. To get a deeper insight into who he is, into how he is, and the things he is pondering. To have had some fascinating new ideas seeded inside me.

I feel grateful that he has had the courage to follow an inclination and curiosity about time. To explore his own temporal patterns and metaphors. To go deep on a single question - one he intends to envelop himself in for ten years - so that he can bring forward a truth, an insight into reality, that will enable us all to live lives of a different rhythm, with greater connection to the beings and objects around us.

I am so conscious of how often I refer to time after I have been with Eddie. And from this awareness, and a new vocabulary he equips me with, I am able to better understand my own temporal preferences, the larger time rhythms of my own life, and to start to think how I can design my time as I continue to live.

In many ways Eddie is just getting started. Already helping liberate many from the time prison they did not know they were in, there are some exciting things to come. I am intrigued by how ideas like encouraging businesses to be temporally mindful and inclusive of their people and their preferences will play out for Eddie, Melbourne and our broader society.

I thoroughly enjoyed my conversation with Eddie, and I hope you enjoy listening too.

You can find out more about Eddie through following him on Instagram, Facebook or twitter, or listening to his alter-ego Dr Time talk at event near you.

And if you enjoyed listening to Eddie, you may also enjoy listening to Samuel Alexander what it means to flourish in the here now, or Matt Wicking on understanding and being mindful of our context.

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Gabrielle Dolan

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Gabrielle Dolan: Stories and feelings over slides and facts - SD59

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My dad used to preach at church. I remember a story he told during one of his sermons about a construction site he would drive past on his way to work. He recalled the fanfare announcing the development, the massive hole that was dug, and then the months and months of nothing. Two years later the site was up for sale: the developer had run out of money shortly after digging the hole. You have to count the cost, my dad said, with the decisions you make. You have to know if you can afford the price. Otherwise you will be left with a big hole and nowhere to hide.

The story has stuck with me for 30 years, and I often recall it when I am making decisions. I’m sure most of us can remember stories we were told at different points in our life and the impact they had on us then and now. Story telling is central to our experience of being humans. It enables us learn, it helps us connect and build trust, and it affects us to action.

What I struggle to recall is story telling within the more formal places that I have worked. Of course this podcast is all about story telling. And within my side business we often share stories. But from my experience within larger organisations I cannot think of one example. What I do remember is actively being encouraged to turn my emotions off, to not show my personal side, to be who I am suppose to be for the client rather than the real me.

Gabrielle Dolan started working with organisations to help leaders share their stories with authenticity and purpose more than 13 years ago (i.e. before it was sexy). She is an author, speaker, teacher and coach who saw the impact of story telling in her job at NAB and decided that the ripple effect of people sharing their stories was something she wanted to be a big part of shaping.

In speaking with Gabrielle I was inspired to be deliberate in my story telling at work. I hope you also get inspired, and enjoy listening to our conversation.

If you enjoyed listening to Gabrielle you may also enjoy listening to Dr Jason Fox on redesigning work, or Mykel Dixon on brining art and creativity to the workplace.

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Jeffrey Slayter

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Jeffrey Slayter: Alternative paths to expanding consciousness - SD58

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How much change do you think you can handle? If it were possible for our species to experience a planet wide shift in consciousness, would we accept or resist this? Would the uncertainty of what the change would mean be too much for us, or would we put that fear aside and believe that it would be for our own good, and the good of our planet?

I have a suspicion that there is so much more available to us as individuals, as a species, and as an ecosystem, than we experience right now. In general our ability to incorporate new ideas and ways of being is incremental and slow, even though that seems to be accelerating over our lifetimes.

But while the speed of life is ever-increasing, and the development of new technologies and enhancements to our lives relentless, so much of the change they bring still seems to be harmful to this planet we live on, and brings disconnection rather than bliss.

I have a suspicion that we may come to a point where crisis, such as a climate crisis, or a mental health crisis, makes it much easier for us to consider the option and awaken us to the possibility of completely different ways of organising, being, and understanding.

Perhaps this is not quite the subtle disruption that is the theme of most episodes of this podcast, but it is the work of my guest for this week to help wake up humans from the confines of their current limited perception.

Jeffrey Slater calls himself an ‘innerpreneur’: a term he coined to describe the work he does in helping people transform themselves from the inside, and then allowing this to manifest externally through their businesses.

He is an author, speaker, and thought-leader who has shared stages with many a famous person and has his own success in business. He has also followed a spiritual path of meditation, self-help and inner transformation. But what he found during this process was that there was still something missing. Something that only seemed to open up to him through the assistance of the shamanic and consciousness opening plants.

According to Jeffrey there isn’t a billionaire alive that has not gone through an ayahuasca ceremony - a process of purging and opening that is millennia old. A process he thinks more of us need to go through to break through the manipulations and facades we are fed and believe as part of a daily existence.

This episode will not be for everyone, but I encourage you to keep an open mind and see how what he says sits with you. After we finished our recording Jeffrey also mentioned that ayahuasca is something that is not to be taken lightly - that the type of Sharman to approach is somebody who has done this kind of thing 1000 times before.

I personally have not gone through such a process, and cannot vouch for it either way. What I am fascinated by though is what is available to us as humans, and what we are deliberately or unconsciously blocking from coming into our way of being. I have had glimpses in the past as to what is available for us if we are willing to do the work, and to let go of the things around us the prop us up. I think the possibilities are profound and within reach, and I am curious about the different ways of accessing them.

Jeffrey speaks openly and freely about his ideas, and I hope you enjoy our conversation.

Some other things we talk about in this episode include:
- this article on the way in which evolution actually selects for us to not see reality as it is
- Jeffery’s book

If you enjoyed listening the Jeffery, you may also enjoy listening to Al Jeffery on connection with ourselves and each other, or Emeli Paulo on authenticity.

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Samuel Alexander

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Samuel Alexander: Subtle disruption through activism, education, and imagination of an alternate future - SD56

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I drive through the Melbourne suburb of Coburg, and into the street of my guest for this week. I am looking for number 3, and see number 5. Instinctively I look to the right of number 5 and see a house that does not fit with what I imagine my guest would make his home.

I don’t know that much about him. I have seen him talk at The Weekly Service. I have read an amazing essay he wrote about two years of living in a shed he built from reclaimed materials. But from what I do know, the straight lines, the manicured garden, and the clean facade of the house I am looking at, all jar with my impression of him. I find the number of this house…number 7. No wonder.

Looking to the left I see a place that seems to fit much better. Vegetable planter box out on the nature strip. Lots of edible, interlaced plants and trees in the front garden. A place I feel comfortable approaching, as if it is not pretending to be anything it isn’t, and will allow me to be as I am.

I knock and my guest opens the door with a warm, understated expectancy. And while he is the guest for the podcast, I am the guest in his home, and he invites me in and has a cup of tea already brewing, made from lemon verbena picked fresh from the garden.

We move out the back and as I walk through the house I can see there is a richness of activity that happens here - piano, books, sewing machine. Through to the back yard, where we have our conversation, chooks, vegetables, fruit and compost toilet are all contained within this standard sized plot.

Among the many things that make up Samuel Alexander, being an academic, a writer, an activist, founder of an ecovillage, father and partner are some of them. The impression of him that lingered most after our conversation though was his empathy for our planet and his fellow humans, his willingness to challenge what it means to flourish as a human, and the alignment of what he talks and writes about with the way he lives.

Here are some links to some of the things we talked about:

If you enjoy listening to Samuel, you may also be interested in listening to Maria Cameron on simple, community living in an urban neighbourhood.

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    • RUDE Girl aka Karen EllisReplyMay 29, 2017 at 12:23 pm

      RUDE Girl from Facebook @ruderepair feels that what Thoreau beautifully writes, Samuel Alexander poignantly expresses in this interview. A modern day Thoreau inspiring and teaching the wisdoms of slow living in a contemporary context.

      Thank you Adam and Samuel for this awesome podcast.

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Barry Spencer

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Barry Spencer: Subtly disrupting the Latin alphabet - SD54

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I am writing the letter ‘S’ as part of the title on my school project poster about our chooks. I am in grade 3, and am trying something different in my lettering.

I muck it up - I don’t like how it looks, and mum sits with me to try and fix it. Whatever we do just makes it look worse. I hate it.

That anecdote sums up the way I used to feel about giving new things a go. I always felt like I had one chance to get it right, even if I had never done it before. Gettings this right was more important to me that giving them a go.

It is thanks to people like my guest for this week that I have had my eyes opened to the joy, wonder, and possibility of following my curiosity, experimenting, and being open to whatever the outcomes may be.

Barry Spencer started doing this about 10 years ago with alternative type designs for the Latin alphabet.

Initially wanting to understand and follow the ‘right’ way to create new type designs, he then started experimenting with ‘wrong’ ways of doing this. He has taken this to the point where many of his designs are beautiful, cryptic alphabets with letters than are no longer readily recognisable as the shape which inspired them.

10 years and over 100 alphabets later, this experiment has led him to teaching positions, running workshops, and completing a PhD.

The reactions he has received have varied from disgust to joy, and thankfully he keeps pushing the boundaries so that we can have our minds open to what we might be able to create, and what we give meaning to and why.

Barry is open in his sharing about his journey and work, and I hope you enjoy listening to our conversation.

You can see some of Barry’s work through his Instagram or Twitter feeds, or his website.

And if you enjoyed listening to Barry you may also like listening to Kate Challis on the relationship between design and wellbeing, or Max Olijnyk on being an author, writing and Good Copy.

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Bronwyn King

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Bronwyn King: Stopping our unconscious investment in tobacco - SD53

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This century it is estimated there will be 1 billion tobacco related deaths globally, up from 100 million last century.

While this stat is confronting in itself, especially given the fact that these deaths are entirely preventable, the fact that many of us unknowingly invest our superannuation and retirement savings in tobacco related businesses makes this confrontation personal.

And you can imagine the incongruence when Dr Bronwyn King, a Melbourne oncologist who sees the devastating impact of tobacco on people’s lives on a daily basis, discovered that her superannuation was also being invested in tobacco stocks.

Very shortly after making this discovering she found herself presenting to the leadership of her hospital about this contradiction, and soon thereafter founded the not-for-profit organisation Tobacco Free Portfolios.

Tobacco Free Portfolios engage quietly behind the scenes with finance leaders to educate them on the impact of investment in tobacco, with the aim of de-normalising this practise. As Bronwyn says, if we were designing the system today, we would not make it automatic that people invested their savings in tobacco businesses.

Today there are 35 superannuation funds that are tobacco free in Australia, helping reduce even further Australia’s low rate of smoking. Seeing the Tobacco Free Portfolio logo on a financial product will become a way of quickly identifying those that do not invest in the tobacco industry.

Bronwyn and her team are doing so amazing work that is changing perceptions of normality about tobacco investment, and indirectly enabling people globally to have longer and fuller lives.

Bronwyn is engaging and articulate, and I hope you enjoy our conversation.

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Corey Wastle

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Corey Wastle: Remembering the why of planning our finances - SD52

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When my guest for this week, Corey Wastle, and his cofounder James O’Reilly founded Verse Wealth, they knew they wanted to do things a little differently. Having a background in corporate financial planning, and witnessing first-hand the fees-first approach most planners took, Corey knew pretty early on that this approach did not sit well with him. And he wanted to create something that did.

For him that meant getting back to the actual purpose of financial planning: to help clients achieve their financial goals so they can achieve their life goals. In an industry many people are skeptical of, this would involve a very different way of doing things, and getting clear on some core principles upfront. Things like transparency in the way they work and not charging commissions on products they recommend.

Taking the time to define what was important for their new business’ culture, Corey and James created a foundation of clarity and integrity upon which their business is now built.

It probably comes as no surprise but I really enjoy talking with people, especially one-on-one. And this is one of the things that struck me after my conversation with Corey: in the process of meeting clients for the first time Verse Wealth take a considerable amount of time to talk with them; to understand the deeper motivations behind their financial desires; to ask them question that perhaps nobody has ever asked them before; and to create a safe place where inner thoughts can be shared and ideas worked through.

Corey and Verse Wealth are taking a different approach not only to financial planning, but also to the way they are designing and shaping their organisation. I hope you enjoy listening to our conversation.

If you enjoyed listening to Corey you might also enjoy listening to Harvey Pene and Ben Walker on purposeful accounting, or Mark Daniels on social procurement.

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Dr Jason Fox

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Dr Jason Fox: Subtly saving us from poorly designed work - SD09

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When he walks into the room there is something that makes me want to sit down with him for what I know would be a long, deep, and fascinating chat. And there is something about him that makes me think he would welcome and enjoy it just as much as I would.

For a self-proclaimed introvert, Dr Jason Fox sure doesn’t seem like it. My guest this week has the look of somebody who knows who he is, is completely comfortable expressing this the way he wants to express it, and could walk up to any group, at any gathering, and be the life of the party. The blazer, the brogues, the quirky mannerisms when he speaks on stage - Jason has taken what some might consider to be uncool and irredeemable and turned them into a statement about what is stylish, relevant, and authentic.

As our conversation starts to unfold I begin to realise that this truely isn’t an act or an exterior facade, but something that seems to have permeated all aspects of his life. Perhaps a better description is that who he is at his core flows out into all aspects of his life. For example, an academic by training, Jason talks and writes with humour and accessibility. There is no feeling of superiority when you are with him, rather there is a sense of generosity and truely wanting the best for you.

But it is in how this understanding of who he is has flowed into his work that I find most interesting. In an era of startups, fin/bio/nano tech, warehouses converted into coworking spaces, and where it is fashionable to poke fun at multi-national corporations and those who work there, Jason has picked the established and mainstream meeting rooms of the corporate world over the startup world as the very target of his work. In some ways he sees this as being a more comfortable fit for him as he believes he can more easily impress those who work at corporates. Corporates seem to be more hungry for his input because they know that things aren’t working there, and they want something new and better and more meaningful. There is a humility and willingness to change that you sometimes don’t find in a self-assured startup.

And although the complexities of big multinationals make implementing significant change difficult, the potential for fast and far-reaching change is profound. Can you imagine the implications of socially and environmentally conscious change inside corporates like Pepsico, McDonalds, Suncorp and the CSIRO - corporates that Jason influences and works with on a daily basis?

Jason is the author of two books (The Game Changer, How to Lead a Quest), a sought after keynote speaker, and an expert in motivation and work design. He is on his very own quest to rid the world of poorly designed work. The kind of work that kills brain cells, drains motivation, and leaves people wondering what the point of the work is, who it benefits, and how it ties back to the goal of their organisation. In its place, Dr Fox implements elements that make work fun and that give people a regular sense of progress. As he puts it, he helps people make progress through doubt and uncertainty and unprecedented work. He enjoys nothing more than helping forward thinking leaders use motivational science and design to create well designed work.

It was through a curiosity about two things that led Jason to his breakthrough ideas. The first curiosity was about the effectiveness of video games in getting people to work so hard at something where they spent so much time failing. The second curiosity was through the observation that in setting and achieving SMART goals people were often prevented from seeing even better opportunities along the path. In disrupting ‘default thinking’ (which is great for efficiency but not so good for strategy, curiosity and empathy), Dr Fox encourages people to embrace self-doubt over certainly as this enables people to have an open instead of closed mind, and to ask themselves what setting fuzzier goals would look like.

In his book The Game Changer Jason’s number one tip for improving the design of work is to make progress visible. And in our conversation, his tip for those of us wanting to be subtle disruptors is to be active instead of passive in our consumption of information, by asking two questions:
- ‘yeah, but….’ (e.g. yeah but that won’t work because its already been done): this means we are thinking critically about the information we are presented with
- ‘yes, and…..’ (e.g. yes and that is like this other random thing over here that I heard about): this means we are thinking creatively about links between the information we are presented with, enabling us to join ideas from very diverse fields to create brand new thinking.

In asking these two questions we are then about to create our own thought leadership and have something valuable to share with others.

Sitting in The Everleigh cocktail bar in Collingwood’s Gertrude St and pondering some fascinating ideas with Dr Jason Fox is right up there with my favourite things to do. I hope you enjoy joining us for this fun and though provoking conversation.

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Summer Edwards

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Summer Edwards: Empowering women in their relationship with work - SD51

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When Summer Edwards decided to become a mother, she had a suspicion that this would mean she would have to compromise having as much responsibility as she was used to at work. Sure, she would be able to continue working part-time, as she wanted to, but the reduction in hours would also mean a reduction in responsibility.

This did not sit right with her though. Why was this necessarily the case? Was it not possible to have a position of responsibility, and work part-time, and be a mother? She wondered if this the experience and expectation of other working mothers as well.

From the time I spent chatting with Summer on a beautiful Canberra afternoon, I got the impression that she has an understated way of asking a question, and if the answer she comes up with is not satisfactory, of not letting it go until she has found a way to take action to remedy the situation.

Another example of this is her wondering about whether the approach of only focusing on one thing at a time had universal merit. Wanting to work on three project concurrently, she would often get advice that it would be difficult to make this happen, and that putting all of her energy into one of those things was a better way to go.

Now running her own consulting business helping social enterprise communicate their stories (Social Impact Stories), building Lead Mama Lead - a network of women seeking to find flexible and responsible work, and through her slow and sustainable fashion blog Tortise & Lady Grey, she has found a way to weave these three projects together in a way that gives her flexibility and the challenge she wants in her work.

It was so good to have a chat with the first Canberran subtle disruptor, something that Summer is living in word and action. I hope you enjoy our conversation.

If you enjoyed listening to Summer, you might also enjoy listening to Sigrid McCarthy on sustainable fashion, Nicole Avery on working as a mum with a family, or Karen Ellis on living frugally.

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Andrew Macleod

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Andrew Macleod: Working for good within the systems we find ourselves - SD50

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In that moment before something big happens; something that we look back on when studying history and can see the inevitability of what was to come; in that moment, are there people who are warning us about this thing? Asking us what are doing to prepare for it? Probing us to help us consider how things will be different when this thing happens?

I am not sure if my guest for this week, Andrew Macleod, would put himself up as a prophet or soothsayer, but he has some great insights into the geopolitical dynamics of our current context, and what this could mean for humans living over the next 20 - 100 years.

For example, it seems as if the era of Anglo/Christian domination is coming to an end, with countries like Russia and China establishing themselves as powerful equals at the very least. Andrew encourages us to think about what a change like this could mean for the way we live, to lift our eyes beyond our own time and culture to that of other eras and other ways of thinking.

Andrew has had a career that has taken him from post-conflict and natural disaster zones, to providing advice on corporate community interfaces. Author, speaker, businessman, board member and advisor: Andrew is compassionate, energetic and insightful, and I hope you enjoy listening.

If you liked listening to Andrew you may also enjoy listening to Gus Hervey on being intelligently optimistic about the future.

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Emma Sharley

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Emma Sharley: The subtle disruption of a corporate career - SD49

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Emma Sharley and I are sitting in the cafe of Sydney’s Museum of Contemporary Art. It is a place she comes to regularly to change the pattern of her thinking; to disconnect from her phone and the everyday hustle of her consulting business; and to connect with the work of an artist she probably doesn’t know too much about.

Through putting herself in situations like this that get her thinking differently, Emma is able to let the inspiration it brings impact the work she is doing. It nurtures the creative juices and brings her closer to her flow state. Something that is so important to what she brings to the table for all her clients.

Almost two years ago now Emma started her own brand and marketing consulting business, after working for the previous six years in a corporate role at Westfield. Making the change without really knowing where the gap in the market was, she spent three months hustling, coffee-ing, and planning, and came up with the formula and niche for her new business.

Realising that the middle and smaller tiers of retail clients were getting left behind in their marketing and customer experience expertise, and matching this with her love of working hand in hand with business stakeholders and decisions makers, Emma launched her business with the specific purpose of providing resources and strategic advice to these types of clients.

Now also working with property, lifestyle and tech clients, Emma quickly learnt the importance of being fearless, persistent, and consistent; of backing herself and trusting her gut; and of being clear on her purpose and the types of businesses she wanted to work with.

Other things we talk about and mentioned in this conversation include:
- understand and creating routines and structures around times when individual flow is optimal
- joining groups like a cowering spaces, or the League of Extraordinary Women, for support, accountability, mentoring and collaboration
- living and working across different cities
- Adam Grant’s book Give and Take

Emma has a great personality and down-to-earth way of talking about her process of moving from a corporate role to her own business. I hope you enjoy listening to our conversation.

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David Packman

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David Packman: The (not so) subtle disruption of personal crisis - SD48

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For the more aware of us, it takes no more than a feather to wake us up that we need to follow a different path.

For others, it takes something a bit more obvious, like a brick.

For most of us, I suspect it is not until we are hit by the steam train that we get the hint, and give ourselves permission to change the course of our lives.

I know this was the case for me, as it was for David Packman, my guest for this week.

A corporate executive in communications, he loved the money, perks and prestige his job gave him.

His feather was his sister taking her own life.

His brick was his mum dying of cancer.

His steam train was getting cancer himself.

Taking the hint he has made some big changes to the way he lives, including becoming a Buddhist, teaching meditation, and putting his communication skills to good use through The Good Men Project and The Sauce.

David is open about his journey and pain in the conversation we had together. Being with him left me feeling warm and connected. I hope you enjoy listening.

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Jessica Ivers

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Jessica Ivers: The reluctant vegan - SD47

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I have this suspicion that one day I will become have vegetarian, or perhaps a vegan. It has been sitting there in the background for about six months, where I have parked it until I am ready to properly consider it.

My suspicion was born from a growing understanding of myself as the member of a species; a species that is a member of an ecosystem; an ecosystem in flux and change and one where I may not always be the most powerful or conscious. If there was a species or a thing that was more conscious or powerful than I was, how would I like it to treat me?

Jessica Ivers, my guest for this week, always had a love for animals, even travelling overseas to help save the endangered Orangutan.

But when asked why, if she cared so much about helping and saving animals, did she still eat them, it gave her cause to pause.

Instead of parking it, she grappled with this question and came to the decision that she could no longer consume animals products, becoming a vegan.

In the words of her friend Carmen Hawker, Jess ‘…is a social change maker, animal fosterer, vegan, digital media specialist and all round cool gal.’

You can read more about her on her website and blog, as well as The Reluctant Vegan website.

Jess is open and gracious with her time and explanations, and I hope you enjoy listening.

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Adam Murray Questions 2017

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Adam Murray: Ponderings and Questions for 2017 - SD45

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This is the second of two slightly different episodes of the podcast Subtle Disruptors.

I have had a three-month break from releasing episodes, and before kicking off 2017 I wanted to think about the key themes that emerged during the 2016 interviews, and to ponder the areas I want to explore as I talk to people in 2017.

Last week I released the 2016 reflection episode, and this week I will be talking about the ideas I am curious about as I start 2017.

I started this podcast for a few reasons. During my gap year I was having some amazing conversations with everyday people all over Melbourne, people who were doing fascinating things in their life and work, with purpose and with meaning. People who were doing it in a way that was subtle and accessible, and in a way that could easily be implemented by others.

It got me thinking that there is so much good happening in the world that goes unnoticed and unpublished. I wanted to meet more of these kinds of people, to have more of these kind of conversations, and I wanted to provide a way for these stories to be told and for others to hear about them.

I had a suspicion that the types of people putting themselves out there in this way would often feel isolated in their quest, and to have a way to connect to others on a similar path would be encouraging and inspiring.

As I think about this I am trying to find a way to categorise these people - who they are and what they are doing. But perhaps the best way to describe them is why they are doing what they are doing.

They are doing it because they have listened to a deep seeded hunch about living in a way that is aligned with their own inner-nature, and aligned with the external-nature they find themselves living in. Not stopping at listening, they have had the courage to take a first step in following this hunch. And then another. And then another. Sometimes slipping. Sometimes pausing. Always feeling, being, questing.

For some this has meant leaving a job that was no longer aligned with them, to start or join something that was. For others this has meant changing the way they eat, where they live, what they spend their money on, or how they connect with others. The manifestations vary, but the underlying reasons seem consistent.

Some of my listeners have described a common trait among those I interview - something they described as egolessness. They are who they are, and doing what they are doing, not because of how it will make them look or what they stand to gain, but because it sits well with them, and its what they’re compelled to do.

It has been an honour to talk with and learn from these people in 2016. And in 2017 I want to go deeper and further, and with a tighter focus.

Over this three month break I have been struck by a number of thoughts. Initially they may not seem all that connected, but I hope as I dump them out I can also connect the dots.

The first is that humans are going to Mars within my life time. Will Dayble, A guy I am planning to interview this year, opened my mind to the audacity of this thought - how extraordinary that I am living at the exact moment when humans become an inter-planetary species.

This got me wondering about whether this was a good thing, what it would change in the way humans think of themselves and our planet. I watched TV shows such as Mars and researched this development.

The second thought come to me thanks to the book Homo Deus written by Yuval Noah Harari. Harari talks about how it is quite possible, also within my lifetime, that some humans will live for 150 years and beyond, will have everything they do monitored and informed by artificial intelligence, and in many ways will be unrecognisable as humans. We will have evolved to become a new species - post-human - not through biological evolution, but through technological evolution.

This idea of myself as a member of a species that was on the cusp of evolving rocked me. What are we becoming, and do we want to become this? Do we want to evolve? Do we have a choice? What about those who do not evolve? And how will this evolution change the way we think about ourselves and our ecosystem?

The third thought followed-on from this and came to me while watching the TV series Black Mirror and re-reading the book Neuromancer. Given the rate of change in technology, what kind of world are we going to inhabit in 20, 50 or 500 years time? How can I understand the change that is occurring? Do we have any power to shape, design or mould this? And if we do, how do we want to shape it?

I could summarise my change in thinking to that of understanding myself as a member of a species, one that is a very small part of an ecosystem, an even smaller part of a historical and future ecosystem, and an even smaller part of a historical and future universe.

Given this context and all its dimensions, including the temporal, biological, technological, ecological, historical, and spacial, and from these three thoughts, two key areas of exploration emerged:

1) What does it mean to live well in this moment, in this context, and how can we go about doing this?

2) What sort of world do we want to inhabit, want our ancestors to inhabit, and how can we harness our context and the change that is occurring around us to bring this into being?

These will be the two questions that focus my attention in a number of things I do this year, including my reading, my work, and of course as I interview people on Subtle Disruptors.

I hope to interview people who can help me understand the context I am living in, and the subtle changes that are happening around me. People who are actively trying to harness these things to bring about a future that more of our species, and our ecosystem, thrive within, what ever that may mean.

People, who while thinking and acting upon this quest, are also living well now, in this moment.

Next week I will start releasing new interview episodes.

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